I am going to try to pick up my blogging again and perhaps speed it up, Lord willing. I plan to do more personal things on Facebook (where my activity has picked up) but more academic/technical things on our-hope.org. I have been asked to speak at the Pre-Trib Study Group this coming December giving an analysis of Sam Storms’ book Kingdom Come which I blogged about a few times. I hope to finish my string of blogs in response to Sam’s points which I had started to do. My paper at the Pre-Trib Study Group will be an expansion of the paper I delivered at the Council on Dispensational Hermeneutics last year. I want to be constructive in my criticism and not bombastic in my disagreements. Please pray for me on this.
For this blog post, however, my main thought goes ahead to the upcoming Council meeting in September which I advertised in my last blog. My presentation is entitled “What Do Israel and the Church Share from a Traditional Dispensational Viewpoint?” I want to help traditional dispensationalists do a full-blown theology and not just hammer the distinction between Israel and the Church (which I firmly accept) as a matter of polemics in our debate with replacement theology. In doing this, one area that gives me pause is the constant use by dispensationalists of the distinction between Israel and the Church as a theological switch that provides proof for the pre-trib rapture. This argument would be more plausible if the distinction has been proven to be absolute on other grounds before we get to the rapture question. To be sure, some dispensationalists in the tradition have argued for a pretty absolute distinction by keeping the Church out of the future earthly kingdom. In addition, Lewis Sperry Chafer’s view of two distinct new covenants was at least partly caused by his desire to make the Israel-Church dichotomy more absolute. As to the idea that the Church as a heavenly elect will have no part in the future earthly kingdom, this seems to be countered by Luke 19:11-27 and like passages. As to the idea of two new covenants, very few dispensationalists today hold such a view. The book I edited entitled “Dispensational Understanding of the New Covenant” shows three views defended, none of which are the two new covenants view. No one showed up to defend this view at the Council when we discussed it.
Thus, although there are other issues that could be discussed here, it would seem that most dispensationalists allow some sharing between Israel and the Church at some point in their overall theology. This brings me to the argument from the distinction in favor of a pre-trib rapture (which I hold strongly and have argued for in print down through the years). Typically the argument is stated this way: (1) the tribulation period of seven years is noted as a time of Jacob’s trouble (Jer. 30:7), (2) therefore, that time is designed for Israel and not for the Church, (3) hence, the Church has no part in the tribulation, (4) the next step is to state how this requires a pre-trib rapture. However, there are two issues that must be dealt with in light of this claim. First, the Bible is clear that the tribulation is not just for Israel but for the whole world (Rev. 3:10, cp. Isa. 13:11). Thus, the statement that the tribulation period is for Israel because it is a time of Jacob’s trouble must be qualified and not used to limit the scope of who the tribulation targets.
A second way to look at the problem is to ask about the Church’s role in God’s coming earthly kingdom. If I am right about Church saints ruling on the earth during the millennium (Luke 19) and the new earth in the eternal state (Rev 22:5), this constitutes a sharing of the kingdom by saints from Israel and the Church. Some opponent of the pre-trib argument from distinction might ask why Israel and the Church can share the kingdom but not the tribulation period if their distinctive nature is so crucial to understanding God’s dealings with these two institutions.
In other words, the way that dispensationalists use the distinction between Israel and the Church as a hermeneutical or theological switch to adjudicate other exegetical or theological statements must be looked at more carefully. At this point, I have come to the conclusion that the argument from distinction is a correlative argument. The distinction fits with a pre-trib rapture but it does not logically compel it. Instead, I see the exegetical and theological information flowing mostly out of 1 & 2 Thessalonians, John 14:1-3, and Revelation 3:10 showing us that it is not so much that Israel and the Church are distinct that proves the pre-trib rapture but that God in space and time has sovereignly chosen and designed the Church to be raptured before the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week. I would appreciate any comments as I continue to reflect and work on my paper for the upcoming Council.
#1 by Edson Ted Lawrence on August 21, 2015 - 12:11 PM
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Thank you for continuing your blog. I appreciate the information you share on this topic. Please continue the good work. The distinction between Israel and the Church is important. Perhaps we need to be more careful how we use it in our defense of the pre-tribulation rapture. It certainly helps with our understanding but is only one component in that defense. I am looking forward to hearing your other thoughts on this topic.
#2 by Rev. David P. Velez on August 31, 2015 - 9:34 PM
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There are various theological events and fundamental doctrines and claims that lead us to the fact of a pre-tribulation rapture. But the distinction between Israel and the Church is a key subject in support of a pre-tribulation rapture. In a paper that I recently wrote I claimed:
“The Church is not Israel, therefore is has to be removed from earth in order for God to continue his plan with Israel. Jesus died for the unity of Israel and the Gentiles to make the two people one (Ephesians 2:14). This clear contrast shows the distinction between Israel and the Church. It should be observed that the professing Church is considered the Church of Jesus Christ (Romans 10:9-10). To some the profession or confession is real, for some not real at all. Those will pass through the tribulation period, including Israel, if they do not acknowledge Jesus as Lord and King of all people, and that he came to give his life in redemption for the human race.
How can the Church be at two places at once? Therefore there is a distinction between Israel and the Church of Jesus Christ. John Nelson Darby eschatological view was based upon the understanding that the church and Israel are distinct entities in Scripture. Darby claims: “When the church is withdrawn from the world, then the prophetic events involving Israel can be fulfilled.”
May God continue to bless you as you continue your work for Him.
#3 by Mike Stallard on September 1, 2015 - 8:00 AM
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David, thanks for your comment. I am not sure that I am tracking with what you are saying. For clarification, let me say strongly that I am affirming the distinction between Israel and the Church. However, what I don’t want to do is use this distinction as a stand-alone argument for the pre-trib rapture. I affirm the pre-trib rapture exegetically and theologically based upon 1 Thess 4-5 and Rev 3:10. The distinction nicely coincides with the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture but the distinction does not compel the pre-trib rapture. Another way to say it is if the only evidence we had for a pre-trib rapture was the distinction between Israel and the Church, would it be enough to carry the day? I have my doubts as I have shown. Thus, I see the distinction as a correlation argument not a logical argument for proof. Thanks again for kindly reading my blog. Blessings…
#4 by Pastor Tom Salagaj on September 2, 2015 - 11:30 AM
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In my study of Revelation 2, 3, and 4, I find compelling proof of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture with regard to the 24 Elders. The completed, raptured church being in the Heavenly Realm, observing the Lamb come forth to take the scroll and open its seals, provides ample distinction between the Church and Israel. Israel, only completed after Messiah returns to save and reward them, must therefore indicate a separate but perhaps equal importance in Millennial as well as Eternal responsibilities. Whereas Israel is returned and given the entire, restructured, Eden like quality land grant originally promised to Abraham, the Church may indeed have rule over the remainder of the planet being filled with Gentiles that result from the Sheep and Goats Judgement in Matt 25:31-46. I find no difficulty with a strong but fair distinction between the Bride’s responsibilities and those of Israel.
#5 by Alex Morris on September 3, 2015 - 11:06 AM
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It seems as though the only way the Israel/Church distinction would logically compel a pre-trib rapture is if the primary distinction between Israel and the Church is soteriological and the primary purpose of the Tribulation is large-scale eschatological judgment for unrepentance from sin, whether that of unsaved Israel or the unsaved world.
In other words, if the Tribulation is primarily to punish the unsaved then it would appear to be unjust to punish the saved (church) who have repented along with the unsaved (of Israel and the world) who have not, although I suppose there might be some post-trib advocates who would argue for some sort of divine protection from the Tribulation a la Noah’s ark or Israel’s protection from the plagues.
I will once again look forward to downloading and reading the CDH papers…
#6 by Mike Stallard on September 4, 2015 - 8:44 AM
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To Pastor Tom:
Thanks for reading my blog and taking interest. The 24 elders are interesting. A majority of the commentaries take the angels of 2 & 3 to be elders and the elders of 4 & 5 to be angels! Go figure…I certainly agree there are ample grounds to argue for a distinction between Israel and the Church. Church is not just a soteriological category. After all, I am a dispensationalist! I just want to be careful about how we handle the implications of that distinction which I think are sometimes overstated.
#7 by Mike Stallard on September 4, 2015 - 8:48 AM
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To Alex:
Good to hear from you, my brother. One of the problems we might have relative to punishment in the trib is that tribulation saints from Israel and the Gentiles suffer the punishment upon the world to some extent. There are martyrs according to the seal judgments et al. If God can pour out wrath on the world which creates problems for trib saints, why can’t He do that for the Church. It is not the distinction between Israel and the Church that compels the absence of the Church in the trib. It is God’s sovereign choice in my opinion. Thanks for your post. I think you raised a significant issue to wrestle with in this discussion.
#8 by alf on September 9, 2015 - 7:42 AM
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I don’t have anything intelligent to add. But I’m looking forward to the upcoming papers, and your input on this topic in particular.
Incidentally, I have your commentary on Thessalonians (among others) and have found it helpful. I especially appreciated your treatment of 2 Thess 1. I think Mayhue does a great job on this as well.
I’m enjoying the posts.